explosive new evidence of political corruption in the obama administration. the internal revenue service and obama white house have exchanged confidential irs taxpayer information. the president nominates fed vice chair janet yellen to succeed ben bernanke has the the second most powerful person in washington. i'm lou dobbs. good evening, everybody, you're lead story tonight, the

internal revenue service scandal worriesenning for the obama white house. the top irs obamacare official testified in front of the house oversight committee and when asked whether they discussed confidential taxpayer information with senior white house officials and presented with emails that contain language to precisely that effect, she could say only she could not remember. the committee revealed emails from 2012 that shows sarah hall ingram trying to council the white house on lawsuits related to the obamacare contraception mandates and into the emails, confidential information appears to be revealed and shared. fox news chief national are correspondents jim angle has our report.

>> the hearing put the agency under a microscope. >> 18 new taxes expected to raise $1 trillion over the next ten yeers in a program that will cost many times that with other taxpayers' cost. >> sarah hall ingram was in charge of tax exempt determines nations though she left in 2010. there were many questions about the irs blocking request for tax exemption status because the groups were conservative. >> do you believe tea party groups were targeted? >> i do not ever think it's okay to use people's political viewpoints in management of inventory. >> other administration officials refused to shed light on how many enrolled, she gave some hints. >> can you tell me how many inquires you have processed? >> she emphasized the requests for subsidies is not the same at enrollment but determines

subsidies. the administration says millions have logged on but fewer have gotten far enough to reach the irs. >> in total to date we've processed several hundred thousands requests. >> from all over the country. >> all over the country. >> whether republicans criticizing the irs, one democrat sought to ridicule the hearing asking if she was familiar with the book about the salem witch trials. >> have you been consulting with the devil? >> are reports that you can fly accurate? >> greatly exaggerated. >> some of the last questions made it seem were done in a joking manner but this is nothing to joke about. it's sad. >> he and others recounted letters complaining about premiums going up hundreds of dollars a month. >> mike from hickory saw premiums rise from $3,87 $388 t. phil, even though the policy was

unchanged, saw an increase of 42%. >> the individual mandate is largely you une unenforceable because the irs can't take legal action against those who don't pay. they can only deduct the penalty from your refund if you get one. >> joiningous, david swag art, a member of the committee on small business as well as science, space and technology. good to have you with us. the president not only continues to say straight forwardly and members of his administration that failing to lift the debt ceiling equals default and that equals recession. these are some of the -- what is your reaction to this? >> look, i'm absolutely stunned this president has been trying to talk down the markets. think about this. when you're president you're supposed to be promoter in chief of the country. instead, think of this, he's

basically talking to the world saying oh, there should be a risk premium in u.s. sovereign debt. he got spanked when moody put out its letter saying it's i am plausible. the math is i am plausible. >> that warning after ed zandi, friend of the president, and icon avatar for moody's, was trying to scare folks. the constitution comes out within days and slaps him down as well as the administration as they should have and we give them credit. >> but, lou, we almost have to take a step back here and realize how shrill the political theater has become. when you have a president, a democrat party, willing to scare the world equity and then the world debt markets on u.s. sovereign debt for political gain. i'm sorry, i don't know at what point that crosses the line of

being unpatriotic. the math is simple. we're going to take in $3 trillion, a little over $3 trillion in revenue in fiscal year 2014. we'll spend about 3.6. we have a $600 billion shortfall. that's about 16% of our budget. we have massive cash to blow to cover our bond payments and the vast majority of government. you would think someone in the white house would be honest, look into the camera and hold a calculator and tell us the truth. >> you're right to look at coverage in gdp terms but it's even simpler than that, as you know. the fact is $3 trillion in revenue, we're talking about $30 billion a month in interest to pay. and therefore -- >> even. >> if i may. it's absurd forrthe peopling sitting around the white house press corps briefing room not to understand element al math and

challenge jay carney, the president, his administration and treasury secretary ever time thht he make that obnoxious dishonest and factually incorrect statement. >> you nailed it. i'm starting to realize the difference between journalism majors and math majors. >> don't go too far. >> i mean it with love. i sat down with a couple reporters today and walked them through, saying our debt service for 2014 is projected to be $237 billion. divide 237 by 12 months, did -- >> there's the mistake, you should do the math for them. 25 to $30 billion in interest payments a month and even they can understand when you've got 300 billion coming in, you've got about a 10-1 ratio of revenue to expense interest

expense in this case. >> this is deadly serious stuff. but why -- >> what is really is -- let me challenge you on that. this is not debt -- >> let me challenge you. this is not deadly serious stuff. this is elemental, simple stuff. it is about perverted will and twisted political objectives on the part of washington, d.c. that doesn't even include within its spectrum the national interest and well-being of tax paying citizens. >> that's the point i was heading toward. it's deadly serious when you have an administration and political part that is willing to talk down the economy, talk down the credit rating of this country when a simple -- pulling out a simple calculator gives you an honest answer. >> we should replace 435 members

of congress with calculators. put pc's at every station or mac book pros. i don't care. at some point people have to be honest enough in this country when they're working for the force of state. you guys have a 5% approval rating. you have a 5% approval rating because you errand it. >> but lou. >> right now the national media is giving this administration and the democratic party a pass on every ignorant, wrong, foolish statement they make. >> it has been stunning the duplicity in the national press of walking out the door, giving me the president's and left's talking points and when we point out they're wrong, they have it incorrect, they just stair at you and say that's not on my script from the white house, therefore i can't write about it. i've almost been embarrassed.

look, i try to give the fourth of state intellectual credit. >> i'm now giving the republican party in congress some credit. today speaker boehner, how did he say that? how was it he said that again today? he -- how -- we talked about obamacare -- by the way there wasn't a single question about it yesterday at the president's press conference. how can you tax under obamacare a citizen who does not buy health insurance that he or she cannot buy on the government's website? that's what we've been reduced to and it's the first time that your party has actually put forward a message that reverberates with the folks paying your salaries. >> look, we've been trying now for a week -- i think we've gonna done an okay job.

>> okay? there's a hell of a standard, congressman. >> lou, we're trying to be intelly honest instead of engaging in duplicity. >> wait a minute, i'm not going to canonize you or your party. you've been talking about debt ceiling breakthroughs equal default as much as the democrats. >> i'm sorry, lou. >> don't be sorry, only you would be sorry if you try to correct me because what i'm saying is factually are correct. what i'm saying is you've got to deliver a message. if you think it's life and death, god, at least, as a party, as a caucus, come up with a message that's intelligible. >> it is, lou, take a step back wild cards. we've been trying to make a fairness argument. if the president gives an exemption for big business and big labor, why not to the

average american. i think i'm finally see that message reverberate. >> you want to see it reverberate? you want to see that message you've been -- that youuhave now secured? you've put away defunding, you have let go of the language of default and i want to show everybody the president's approval rating today. "the associated press" poll. can we put that up, please? okay. take a look this, congressman. there is the effect of doing a good job, an intelligent job in what you style as a life and death issue. this president is at an all-time low of 37% in "the associated press" poll. >> maybe, lou, it is starting to sink in, the absurdity of the argument coming out of the white house. >> it is. the fact is we've had to my great from defund obamacare to the fairness argument. now as we approach

october 17th and one of the things i'm proud of you for doing, and give you great commendation, is to point out, debt ceiling does not equal default, does not equal recession. and every elected official in congress, republican, democrat, president, i don't care who they are, that makes such spree anxious nonsense deserves to be -- >> yet you. >> i have enough trouble with television. i can't take responsibility for -- >> i understand. but this -- we've had a breakthrough because two years ago there was only a couple of us as members who would get in front of a camera like this and walk america through the math. >> don't -- don't walk america through anything. do the job of making a message comp hencable and connect with the people. i'm so -- by the way, you guys don't have the intellectual fire

power to talk down to the american people. inspire us, lead us, and cut the nonsense. >> first, stop for one second. >> i have to stop for one minute. i give you the last -- don't talk over me. you and i are talking straight. i'm going to give you the last word and i would like you to be -- mistake that message cogent. >> look, you, and i and a number -- >> i'm sorry, i'm not going to let you say to me, look, you okay? you and i are peers, you're a congressman, i like you as a person. just tell us what you got to say. >> i was about to compliment you. >> that's all right. >> the fact of the matter is making it clear anyone whoous uses the word default is do you listeduplicitous and not tellinu

the word. >> i think we have our messages across. >> thank you, lou. >> david swig earth. >> a daring raid by our special forces in new york africa, governo you really love, what would you do?" ♪ [ woman ] i'd be a writer. [ man ] i'd be a baker. [ woman ] i wanna be a pie maker. [ man ] i wanna be a pilot. [oman ] i'd be an architect. what if i told you meone could pay you and what if that person were you? ♪ when you think about it, isn't that what tirement should be, paying ourselves to do what we love? ♪

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small team of fbi agents from the new york field office are on a navy warship in the mediterranean interviewing the al-qaeda leader captured over the weekend in libya. abu anas al-libi is accused in the 1998 american embassy bombings in east africa because he was indicted in new york by a grand jury. the new york fbi field office is in the lead.

al-libi is expected to be brought to new york. joining us,,colonel oliver north, host of war stories. thank you for being here. >> good to be with you. >> first successful operation in libya. your thoughts about that. >> after 15 years of this guy being wanted, he's been wandering the streets of tripoli free and clear. no one molesting him or apprehend him. i'm told one of the reasons the operation was conducted when it was by the delta force was because several private individuals were preparing to do the operation themselves. because there was a $5 million reward, which none of the members of the armed forces can collect, but $5 million for justice program. this guy was walking around the streets free and clear. >> and had been -- it's said that we knew where he was for the past three years. >> we've known where others are

involved in the benghazi attack. i brought with me photographs. >> take us through them. >> looking at these photographs, this first one of course is what he looks like now. the photographs we brought with us provided in this case by a former intelligence officer, this is an overhead shot from u.s. aircraft or u.s. surveillance vehicle of some kind. i don't want to tell bad guys things they don't need to know. this is a ground surveillance shot taken of him. >> what are we looking at? >> what we're looking at are photographs taken of him. this is a photograph. up in the upper left is a photograph is he looked in 1998. lower right is what the fbi assumed he would look like having been aged 15 years. the center is what he really did look like in the surveillance shot taken a few weeks ago. >> when we talk about what our special forces, all our intelligence agencies are doing

in working with this material, as everyone can see, it's not easy to make those identifications, particularly a person aging and projecting on to a -- >> well, this kind of operation is not easy either because one of the things that has to happen is he has to be grabbed in that particular place, apprehended, if you would, taken offshore at least 12 miles. we did this in the reagan administration with unis, lured out from beirut, 12 miles offshore, taken down by the fbi, cia and u.s. military and taken to a navy ship. he was interrogated and brought back -- he was tried in washington. al-libi will be tried here inn3 new york. >> colonel, as always, good to have you with us. >> thank you, lou. it took eight days of a partial government shutdown for congress to revive one of the least effective and unoriginal

ideas in its position. in the chalk talk we'll take up the issue of, are you ready? a super committee. yes, another super committee may be upon us. stay with us. any last requests mr. baldwin? do you mind abbing my phone and opening the capital one purchase eraser? i ne to redeem som venture miles before my demise. okay. it's easy to erase any recent travel expense i want. just pick that flight right the. mmm hmmm. give it a few taps, and...it's taken care of. this is pretty easy, and i see it worksn hotels too. you bet. now if you like that, press the red button on top. ♪ how did he notee that coming? what's in your wallet?

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tonight for the chalk taak, imagine if you will that you're a republican congressional leader and you can't get the government up and running, you can't get anybody to talk and negotiate with you and your job approval rating as a member of congress has fallen to 11%. one point above the worst rating for congress in history. it is day eight of the shutdown and unfortunately the republican party is proposing a new super committee to address all that is befallen them. let's look at the history of super committees. september of 2011 whenlet first super committee kicked off the first meeting, their official name, the joint elect committee

on deficit rejection. they had two months to come up with an agreement on a plan to achieve $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction and, yes, even though they called it a super committee, it failed. the congress has a short memory, if one at all, and they certainly love to talk bipartisan in particular as they're trying to wind their way out of messes they create. they love bipartisan powwows. so in january of this year, the senate formed a gang of eight. isn't that impressive? a gang of eight. capitol hill's newest power click. they managed to have their immigration reform package pass the senate? june but it was dead on rifle in the house despite being a super committee, a gang of eight, a bipartissn device.

ittwas a political favor. marco rubio took a devastating hit. we're not done with congressional game failures. things are going to swimming in in the senate, in january this year the house created its own immigration gang of eight. in june this year it became, however, the gang of seven. these things happen to super committees and gangs. by september it had become the gang of five. and now it is the gang of zero. it's gone nowhere. it will go nowhere. notice the trend here. but wait, our lawmakers say this time will be different. well, maybe all we have to do is name this the -- let's go a couple of names here and see if they make sense. the magnificent, outstanding, marvelous, candy-rock mountain

sensational, outstanding super duper, supercalifragilisticexpialidocio us committee. it's bound to succeed with a name like that or maybe just lead back to this, which is what it's done in every other instance a big zero. stay with us, we're coming back. [ male announcer ]id you know that if you wear a partial, you're almost twice as likely to lose your supporting teeth? try poligrip for parals. poligrip helps minimize stress which may damage suorting teeth by stabilizing your partial. care for your partial. help protect youratural teeth.

so she could take her dream to the next level. so we talked about her options. her valuable assets were staying. and selling her car wouldn fly. we helped syey managher de and prioritize her goals, so she could really turn uthe volume on her drea today... and tomorrow. so let's s what we can do about that... remol. motorcycle [ female announcer ] some questions take more than bank. ey take a banker. make a my financl prrities appointment today. becauswhen people talk, great things happen. campaign cs taking center stage in the supreme court's first major campaign finance case since the citizens united decision.

joining us, forrer chairman of the federal elections commission and partner at patton boggs, dondonmcgann and jay sefalow. the case is about letting wealthy people contribute more money. don, how do you think that court is going to rule? >> i think the court will probably strike the limit at issue. i'm not entirely convinced they're going big as some suggest and throw out all limits. the limit that is at issue is a belt and suspenders limit designed to cap the overall ability to give to certain candidates. if doubt math, it -- do the math it can result in a ban from respect to contributions to a number of candidates or a small donation to a number of candidates and they'll find it

unconstitutional. >> 48,000 to the candidate campaign committees. that's a lot of money to most americans, jay. what do you think? >> well, i think don's right. this supreme court is going to do exactly what they've been doing, a continual chipping away at the campaign contribution limitation and recognize contributing money too campaign is a form of speech. i argued a portion of the mccain-fine gold case, the first big campaign finance case in a long time. there was a provision that i argue that was unconstitutional, the court struck 9-0, a ban on contributions to -- for minors contributing. the court says that's unconstitutional. since then the court has looked, at least a five court majority, views the campaign contribution limitations as violation of free

speech t sounds like a lot to some but some individuals, it affects the number of candidates you could support. if someone has resources and wants to support, say, 25 or 30 candidates, democrats, republicans, independents, do we think the government should say no, you can't? there's five votes on the court to say it goes. do they have to go broader? probably not. there's five votes eventually to prohibit these limitations anyway. >> before we get into the votes, i want to continue the theme here that we're struggling with. i personally, don, i don't want the supreme court giving -- i hate limits. especially on free speech. on any right of any american. at the same time, i hate watching a michael bloomberg. a billionaire, spending vast sums of money to attack second amendment rights of americans. he has his view, he has his

resources, many americans have views but don't have his resources. how do you deal with the massive power of some indiiiduals -- and, by the way, there are people who would be just as upset on the left by some moneyed interests a blockburg? >> my thought is though it seems like quite a bit of money at issue, many limits are incumbent protection. it doesn't take a las vegas book maker to tell you you can only give to eight candidates but they max out. you're going to give to the safe incumbents. if you are one who's attempting to get in with the in crowd. >> you're not suggesting what we're doing here is helping billionaires avoid bad decisions. >> i'm not suggesting that. i'm suggesting these limits protect incumbents in the ruling class. by striking limits it opens it up and gives more people a

voice. you have candidates who are upstarts and challengers who will receive more funding and give them a chance to come bat the single issue, large money bloombergs of the world. >> the establishment, which is entrenched, and you can talk about incumbents winning 96% or call it recidivism. i don't see how that follows those big moneyed interests, once winning, would in any way be charmed by the idea in the next cycle of let's bring in fresh blood. i haven't seen it work that way through the american history. what would create that exchange. >> remember -- change. >> the difference is not only can the individual, the limitations at issue are blown off at unconstitutional. individual citizens can work together, it's called freedom of association and you've covered

this in other context. but the right goes with the overall free speech where individuals who don't have the money of a mayor with bloomberg individually but collectively they do. and this s going to impact that. you saw that with citizen united. it's not just the financial elite. but it's people able to work together and pool resources together. once you get government out of the way, that opens up and protects more speech. the way to combat speech you don't like is with more speech. >> the president today already talking about this case, saying he believes citizens united contribute today many of the problems. this case could -- well, could take that to exponential levels, i'm sure in the president's view. how do you think the justs will vote -- justice will vote? who will lead the way? >> key justice is chief justice

roberts. there are four justices, scalia, thomas, kennedy and ali toe that have all but said they don't like this sort of limit. several of owes justices have written they don't like limits but the chief is the key vote. his questioning today showed he understood the issue and was looking for a way to reach the result in a way that was consistent with core precedent and what the court had done before. he pointed out there's other ways of achieving the goal of the government that is not as draconian as banning people from giving to their candidate of choice. >> thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> up next, iran with a new offer to end sanctions by the united states and the west. embassador john bolton tells us why we should not trust the new iranian president. that's next. but there are no branches? 24/7. i'm rry, i'm ju really reluctant to try new things.

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joining us now, former u.s. embassador to the united nations, john bolton. embassy, good to have you. first the developmenn, reciprocal openings of embassies in london and tehran between iran and the united kingdom. >> it's a big mistake, it's a preemptive concession by the british to put the iranians in a good mood. another signal to iran the high ground in this negotiation is with them. it signals what ink is the beginning of a bad deal for the united states and allies. >> how conceivable is it the united kingdom would have opened this relationship iran without u.s. approval and full knowledge and support? >> certainly full knowledge and i suspect support because we're looking for somebody else to make the sequencing moves to give the first concession so it doesn't look like it comes from

us. it's bad news next week. iran will have a fake proposal in effect that means nothing. i'm afraid we'll agree to it and this is the road to iranian nuclear weapons. >> that is the path created in your judgment. it is clear that the administration is moving along a path that it really believes is significant. how can they be deterred? it looks as though they have support internationally for this opening. >> well, i think a lot of countries are determined to find a negotiated quote/unquote, settlement but if we legitimize iranian enrichment by iran, that is guaranteeing iran will be able to weaponnize its uranium with a little bit more enrichment at a time of its choosing. they're going to get sanctions lifted and clear path to nuclear weapons.

>> what can be done here? there is apparently a strong support for this. is there anything that those who are opposed to this opening can do? >> i don't think so. unless the iranians score an own goal and screw up the negotiation, which is possible. i think the desire to say we've taken care of the iranian program, if it guarantees a path to nuclear weapons, is a high priority for president obama. one thing that stands in the way is a israeli military strike. >> does this make that more likely? >> it should, unless israel wants iran to have nuclear weapons. i believe that president obama has put unremitting pressure on benjamin netanyahu, the israeli prime minister. i doubt israel will strike. >> embassador john bolton, thanks for being here. next, more evidence the white house is picking and choosing where it wants the

public to feel the government shutdown. a campaign of pain. let's take a look at two specific government websites and see what you think. that's next. bny mellon combines investmentt servicing, giving us unique insights wo create powerful strategies infor a country's investments ich are used to build new schools to build more bright minds. insted in the world. bny mellon. [ crashing ]

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critics accusing the obama administration are scoring political points dug during the shutdown taking down the amber alert program that issues bulletins for child abductions. the home page is back up and running after it as featured on the home page of the drudge report. but that wasn't the case last week and it caused a considerable backlash. the drudge report pointed out the website bore michelle obama's let's move campaign

remained functional throughout the shutdown. joining us, author of a new book fatal tide, lis wiehl and scotty mel hughes, good to have you with us. >> your reaction to the idea anybody would day care down the amber alert website? >> using kids? of course. we need a new definition, what is essential versus nonessential. when you take down something that's helping kids, helping restore families together, yet you keep your entire administration like the whiie house kept all staff, including four personal secretaries the president's wife has? those are essential? we have to can he fine what's truly important to this country. >> this is only informational, it's not like it costs that much. you go to the website and you have people running out and rescuing children. it's information from parents and so it really -- it just is

amazing to use children like this in the wrong way. >> dominating the headlines obviously the shutdown. the debt ceiling approaches. it's on everyone's mind now. the president continues to say he won't negotiate that it's reckless of the republicans to have desires and preferences and priorities with which they would like to discuss with mr. obama. i swear to you, hank, the man sounds beyond i am peerous and hasn't read american history on this issue. >> well, look, it's not smart to shut down the government, it's not smart to be part of it on either side. >> so stipulated. >> i was there in 1995 and went through t it's not smart. no one wins. john boehner doesn't look to look good. they'll all pay a price. >> everybody pays a price. now, what is the idea behind a

president saying that he doesn't negotiate with people? the constitution says he does negotiate. why isn't there more of an uproar about i in i that? >> why i was thinking about that. he won't sit down with the house leadership. it puts the house leadership at a disadvantage because it gives them nobody to talk to and you can't make a deal if you don't negotiate. >> people aren't paying enough attention. if you haven't been affected on a personal level, maybe you're not following this and you're not realizing, wait a econd, the president, who has the biggest toys in the sandbox, isn't going to play properly with the other boys and girls in the sandbox? wrong. >> and that's what the president wants. that's how he won reelection, he wants people to become disenfranchised and confused. when you say 'm not going to negotiate, the people that are going to support him will still

support him. the ones that are angry are not going to change their minds. >> he rolls on. >> they're going to -- >> this is smart politics on his part because the bait in the middle is to tell americans these guys want to stop more affordable healthcare. i'm not going to bargain that away. >> it's such a compromise, an easy compromise. one year extension. >> not for him because it -- he's playing it as the loss of affordable healthcare for people. >> but there's so much glitches, they can't sign up. >> we know that but the average folk don't know that. >> or don't care. >> how much are we talking about? and frankly, an illiterate and disinterested public -- somebody said do we want people voting in this country? my god, the level of knowledge about what is happening in our politics and government, local, state and federal, is so deplorable.

do we really -- how much do we want everyone voting? 80% turnout. >> political scientists don't want people to turn out en masse. people are so bored by the basketball and idiocy -- possibly babble, they've turned off and the president is saying my way or the highway and no one is saying, president, get to the table.lly there is. john boehner and he's doing a pretty good job. i think he may have the president's attention because i think he thought this is my -- purely my opinion, i think he thought that boehner would roll. i really do. i want -- weere going to have with us tomorrow night one of the folks who has been displaced by the shutdown. the campaign of pain, make it hurt so much as possible campaign by the obama administration, he defied the federal government and opened

his lodge on the blue ridge parkway in north carolina and stuff happened. >> right. >> the law here, is it on his side? >> it's on his side. >> yes. >> there's still a little america left. >> he's leasing it from the feds but it's a private organization, a private lodge. what i would argue is -- tortious interference. the feds are shutting him down, taking out his livelihood for something he already bargained for and leased from them as a private entrepreneur. >> how about these people -- i mean i want to get your reactions as well as legal opinion. these folks at lake mead own the houses that they've leased for long term leases, 90 year leases, and people are throwing them out of their houses. park rangers are coming up. park rangers, when i was a kid, these are great folks.

these people are now -- i mean they look like some sort of political police force. that's scary to me. where this administration is taking this country. >> it's scary to anybody. doesn't -- this is something that's not republican or democrat. >> it is because this is a democratic president acting as if he were in charge of a police state. >> this is wrong behavior by any measure. >> we agree on that. >> you look at governor scott walker in wisconsin, he said i'm going keep my parks open. more money comes from my budget than yours, i win. we need republican governors standing up saying i control this state. not you, president obama. ddal with me, don't take it out on my citizens. >> this is a private organization, even more that they have the right to do what they want. >> scott walker is to be congratulated. there's a effect right now,

all that the country's gone through and we talk about the apathy and indifference of folks right now. it's so troubling and frustrating. this is a country right now not behaving like americans. there was a time local sheriff's would stand up. the mayor, the governor, county officials would say you're not going to act like this. and understand who they're talking to and have a relationship. but we've got a government right now that is trying to intimidate every element of the citizenry and state e local and county government. that's got to change. >> so much of the money that comes to force county government to function comes from the feds. you never bite the hands that feeds you. >> plus all the surveillance that's happening. >> right. >> so what we're saying is, the dependent nation that president obama seems to have wanted to create, he's succeeded. >> he's done it with voters and

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